I’ve been having an interesting discussion on an old entry entitled “The Controversy in the Southern Baptist Convention: PART I” I am moving the discussion to a new post because I think it has potential to be a good discourse and because I would like to see what others, who visit my blog, think about it. The discussion began with this comment:
The main problem I have with the SBC and particularly fundamentalist Christians is their selective reading of the Bible especially regarding Jesus’ teachings about social justice and nercy. They have become so politically motivated (and power-starved)that their ideology has aligned completely with the Republican National Committee. I wish someone would explain to me how you can be pro-war and pro-life or against right-to-die and pro death penalty. It doesn’t make any sense and it’s not supported by the Bible. Please be consistent. If you are a Christian you are against killing. Correct? Even more confusing is how strongly you promote the 10 Commandments and then conveniently ignore “Thou shalt not kill.” Why have you not fought against poor environmental policies? Are we not called to be stewards of the world? I could go on but this is tiresome and it hurts my spirituality. I know you are cursing me as a liberal or evildoer but Jesus was about reconciliation above all and it would do some good if you could open your mind just large enough to have a discussion and concede that you don’t have all the answers. - Al
Honestly, no one that I know of in the SBC and myself included has ever said that we have all the answers. I for one have never claimed to know all things. It is not that we have some problem with selective reading of the Bible that is the problem for most people, it is more our determination to be solid and unwaivering on Biblical doctrines that make poeple think that the SBC is a closed minded, bigoted agency. Unfortunatly I believe that is so far from the truth.
If you want to talk politics in relation to the church and the SBC then you have to recognize that for a Southern Baptists Christian, such as myself, the issues is not about one political party being right and one political party being wrong, it isn’t about Democrat or Republican, because both have their downfalls and their issues that completely clash with what we stand for. When it comes to voting Democrat or Republican it is about voting for the lesser of two evils, not one being “right” and one being wrong.
While I do not believe the SBC or any churches in the SBC have aligned themselves with any party; think about this for a moment: If the agency aligned itself with the Democratic party then people would say, “why would you vote for a party that supports the killing of babies and homosexual marriage.” If the agency aligned itself with the Republican party people say, “how can you vote for war loving, poor environmentalists.” Either way it is the same thing and no matter what political party was in the White House it would be the same thing, both have bad qualities and do things that as a Christian I would not support. Does that mean Christians should not vote. Should Christians just shut up and take a back seat when it comes to politics because our religious moral convictions have us too blinded to play a role in the political process?
I don’t think that is the answer either. I think Christians, especailly Southern Baptists should play a role in the political process. When it comes to that arena then you have to know that both parties have evil’s (Noone is perfect. No politician or party will ever be perfect) and its a matter of picking the lesser one and then fighting its potential drawbacks.
As far as “Thou shalt not kill” goes I would have to ask you a question. Do you think war is always wrong? Is killing always wrong? If so, then why is it that the same God who said “do not kill” leads Isreal to take over lands and nations by force and instead of taking them captive or exiling those poeple he has them slaughter kill everyone including the women, children, men, animals, and then burn everything. There is a difference between violent, intentional murder and war, although I believe it is a very, very fine line. but to say that all war is wrong because of the Ten Commandments, I do not agree.
Thank you for your response and the fact that you are engaging in this discussion gives me hope that there is a chance for greater unity in the Christian community. We do agree that Christians should be active in politics or at least on the issues they feel called to speak up for. And, yes, I agree that we need to vote and possibly even chose a party affilitation, however, we differ in that I am drawn to certain moral issues that you may not be drawn to as much. Does that make me less Christian or just different? I am certainly not for abortion or promoting promiscuous lifestyles, but my Christian beliefs have to be measured against the whole spectrum of issues when I pull that voting lever. I would like to see conservative Christian and progressive Christian leaders stand up for the issues that are right even when it goes against party lines. That is very uncommon. Let’s have conservative pastors speak out against the death penalty or poverty issues (or at least the fact that our government is not developing policy to address those most in need) or to be fair let’s have progressive ministers say more about our overindulgence in sexually explicit media or abortion. This is what I mean about consistency. To be a true Christian to me is to be a rebel, to speak up for what is right and call out those that are off track, like Jesus did. To do this you have to slap the hands of those in your own political party as well. I believe most Americans are moderate. They don’t like the unbiblical partisan behavior. They don’t like that the radical right has stolen the Republican party or that hard-core secularists want control of the Democatic party.
Lastly, I don’t think that self-defense is unjustified (if you are attacked, you must fight back just as we did when Pearl Harbor was attacked). You have to protect your home and family. But war should never be chosen until all peaceful solutions are tried. And it should especially not be used pre-emptively! In Iraq, we now know that there was no connection between the attackers of the WTCs and Iraq. Finally, yes, war is always bad in that human life is taken. We should pray for forgiveness whether we feel justified or not. - Al
I would like to hear your Biblical perspective of war, I’m not sure that you fully answered my question. However, I have to agree with you that Christian leaders should very well stand up for the issues that are right even when it goes against party lines. I believe that, as pastors, we should stand up for these issues including the environment, sexual indulgence, and poverty, which is what I meant when I said we had to vote for the lesser evil and then fight the drawbacks, meaning the things that we don’t agree with.
Being one of the pastors of a Southern Baptist Church and being a part of the Southern Baptist Convention I am only familiar with what we do and with what many of our pastors and people are involved in. I see pastors and the convention standing firm in many of these areas, fighting and speaking out against many issues. Even as a church we fight world hunger and understand the value of human life as we speak out against abortion, fight the gambling boats close to our area, and help others in our area with poverty and hunger. I don’t see the church as being silent, however I think there is always room for us to do more, speak out more, and fight more for what we believe regardless of who is in office.
Now, regarding the death penalty, I think maybe the reason many conservative pastors and laypeople don’t take up the fight against it is because they don’t see it as wrong. I understand that this immediatly goes back to your first question of inconsistency, but again I think there is some Biblical support for the death penalty. The problem with the death penalty and with our legal system as a whole is that it can be corrupted by fallible humans who pretty much corrupt everything we touch. I think for those who are not against the death penalty as a whole they should still be against the corruption in our legal systems.
All these things do bring up some interesting questions. What should be the role of Christians in our secular society?
I often see the command, “Thou shall not kill”, invoked by those against war or the death-penalty. However, this command is intended to provide a measure against the crime of murder. Not all killing is murder. That’s why God could tell Israel not to “kill” but allow for war and the death penalty in certain instances. Therefore it is also not a contradiction to be against abortion (murder), and for the death penalty (not murder). There may be all kinds of other reasons to be against the death penalty and war, but this command does not apply.
-shawn
Can I comment or am I out of the loop?
I apologize for getting off the subject of the last blog but his is an important discourse. After I finished writing the last one I thought you might say something so thanks for redirecting. I agree that there are verses in the Old Testament supporting or at least documenting war and war-like behavior by “God’s people” but I don’t recall Jesus commenting on this topic. I do, however, think he said quite a bit about love and mercy in the Serman on the Mount and on many, many other occasions; including, “love your enemies.” I am not trying to defend criminals or terrorists or anyone who commits evil by killing an innocent person. I get angry and sometimes full of rage at them, but didn’t Jesus challenge us to rise above this as we are all sinners in need of saving? Regarding the death penalty, we have other options such as life w/o parole. These may seem like evil people b/c of their actions, but do they still have a chance at redemption? And don’t we need to forgive? This is all very difficult for me to answer but I would have to say yes to each. I don’t always understand everything in the Old Testament and to me there’s some verses to ponder such as “eye for an eye..” which appears to sanction revenge and many people use this verse as justification for killing (and the death penalty), but I read what Jesus says in the New Testament and I think that is the guide I most try to live by. As for standing up for what you (and the SBC) believe, I was wrong to paint all pastors in the SBC with the same brush. I see many good people doing great service. To me trying to follow Jesus’ teachings can be a struggle and I have to study and try to keep an open mind and listen to all points of view b/c I know life is not black and white.
I like your analogy, “Painting all pastors with the same brush”. I think we all have a tendancy to do that, at least I know I do. That is something that I have to watch in my own life. Honestly, the SBC and the people have the best of intentions and are good people at heart, but it remains true that people are different. We don’t always agree with each other, we don’t always see eye to eye, and that is probably a good thing. To have diversity is to bring into question what we believe. When someone brings the things I believe into question I work twice as hard to understand those things in order to make the right choice or decision. If I am in the wrong I want to change, if I am right I want to grow stronger in those convictions. Diversity does not have to be a bad thing.
As far as the Bible goes, I am uncomfortable with the thought that Jesus “trumps” the Old Testament. The way you are explaining it, to me sounds as if you find something in the OT that seems to be contradictory then ya just go with Jesus instead. I don’t believe Jesus contradicts the rest of Scripture, but instead brings it into perfect completion. While it is true that some things change from one covenant to the other, I believe that the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. It’s not as if God was a mean, ruthless deity and then suddenly had a change of heart and decided to be a God of love in the New Tesatament. While Jesus speaks of love freaquently and while the two greatest commandments that sum up the Word of God are LOVE God and LOVE people I do not think that what Jesus is saying is as simple as we make it out to be. our ideas and definition of what love means can vary, but Christ’s definition and understand of what he taught does not vary. People use the word Love far to often to justify what they are doing, or to keep people from condemning them. People can be living a life of sin in the church and if anyone brings it up they pull the “you’re supposed to love me” card. I think we have a tendency to abuse scripture and we must be careful in our understanding of what it is actually saying to us.
All this talk of diversity, you are starting to sound like a liberal.:) Just kidding (truly meant in a lighthearted way), I agree with a lot of this and am glad to see that you are open-minded regarding differences of opinion. Open-mindedness and humility, to me, are the spiritual qualities that most lead to wisdom and I prize them greatly though I probably fall short of these qualities more than I’d like. Incidentally, I think diversity of opinion is why we have so many denominations within Christianity. But even so, surely Jesus challenges us to rise above these differences and become united in Christ.One of the best ways I think we can do this is through ecumenical projects and through cooperation.
I don’t want to pit the Old Testament against the New Testament and I realize I might have sounded that way, but to be fair I never said the New “trumped” the Old. I was merely trying to explain how I had come to some of my beliefs about current moral issues and how reading the Bible had helped. But also, I was admitting that there is much I don’t understand, much that is a mystery, and to me the New Testament is more straightforward. I guess I look at history as a progressive revelation in that during the times of Abraham and Moses people lived in more primitive and lawless times. I believe that is why he gave the 10 Commandments because they needed order and laws to keep them safe for the coming of Jesus. Jesus came, I believe, and brought a new message of peace and love for them and for the whole world. With Jesus’ teachings we have a greater spiritual understanding with which to make moral choices.
The commands that Jesus gives in the New Testament are many times simply quotes from the Old Testament laws. I think the Old Testament and the 10 Commandments are still as relative to us today.
Yes, I agree, but I want to be careful not to become like the Pharisees who worshipped law above the spirit and love of Jesus. Should we be lawless, no; should we not follow the 10 Commandments, of course not. I think through prayer we can ask for guidance in discerning the right way (and we can look to the Bible for guidance just as well). Jesus was probably harder on this group (the Pharisees)than any other b/c in their zeal to be rule-bound and virtuous in the eyes of society, their excessive pride and vanity blocked them from the spirit of love which trumps all. Despite the Divinity of Jesus and the Truth he spoke, they refused to be open-minded to the spiritual gifts he offered b/c they believed they knew the Truth and they did not need some lowly carpenter to bring anything new to their understanding of God. So I want to follow moral principles as written in the Bible but I want to seek Christ in all persons and this means I must go across denominational and geographical lines. I can’t say, “Well I’m not going to deal with him or her b/c they are evil or don’t believe the Truth as I see it.” And I don’t see you saying that either. Now, of course, people like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity are another story, but luckily they do not speak for Christians.
Take care, Brother and Peace.
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