I was writing a response to some of the comments in my first post, “Pluralism is a problem!” and it got to be so long that I decided to make it another post. Before reading this post please read carefully the previous entry and comments so that you will be well informed and able to critically think through this issue.
“Why do you feel the need to tell everyone else that they are wrong and you are right? Can you both be right?” - Rob
No Rob, both cannot be right because both religions contradict each other. You can be righteous, you can be meek, you can be pure of heart, you can be a peacemaker, you can be merciful and you can love your neighbor as yourself and still be completely lost and still go to hell when you die because salvation does not come from any of those things. There are many different religions and it is simply impossible for them to magically all be right. Jesus is the only way period and all other religions that do not teach Jesus to be the way to salvation are religions that are leading people astray and it is certainly right to say that anything that leads people away from God and makes them think they are saved when they are not is in fact evil.
Now is it right to go to a bunch of lost people and say to their face “your religion is evil.” No, that is not necessarily a good thing to do at first and in having only second hand knowledge I don’t know the context of which Rev. Graham was speaking, but it is certainly right to point to the truth of Jesus Christ and anytime you do that it will make someone else wrong and it will make them mad and that is fine. If you want to get mad then go right ahead cause it doesn’t concern me a bit.
Truth is not relative to the individual, and that is the point of this post. Jesus says “I AM THE TRUTH” therefore all other religions that reject Jesus as being the way to salvation and as being the divine son of God are in fact false. False religions do not lead you to God. They may lead you to being good, and meek, and gentle, and loving, and kind, and pure but in the end if you do not know Christ as Lord then you have not experienced salvation and that kindness and goodness and purity and gentleness will not amount to a hill of beans when you face the final judgment.
“seek the truth, don’t label it before you understand it. listen carefully.
and above all remember the new commandment: love your neighbor as yourself.” - Dave
Dave I found truth a long time ago when I found Jesus, and I do listen carefully by faithfully practicing 1 Thessalonians 5:21 “Question Everything, Hold on to the Good.” It concerns me that you left out the most important part of the new commandment, what Jesus calls the GREATEST command to “Love the lord your God with all of your heart, with all of your mind, and with all of your soul” Certainly love for our neighbors is important and something to be evident in our lives but it is not the most important thing. That is about all people ever emphasize. Never love for God, never love for his commands, never love for his truth, never love for his word, but instead the only thing you can do is emphasize love for your neighbor. That way anytime someone tries to speak of this truth you can say, “well you can’t teach truth because you have to love your neighbor! You can’t make people feel like they are being judged and you can’t make them feel like they are wrong so you can’t speak of truth.” Love your neighbor becomes the cry of liberals everywhere because speaking the truth is confrontational and un-loving and wrong.
Sad thing is Jesus spoke truth, and that truth made people angry, and that truth went against the very religion the people were practicing and they hung him on the a cross for it! Jesus didn’t back down because of the commandment, “love your neighbor as yourself.” He continued to emphasize the fact that he is the only way, not the law, not works, not religion, but himself period. The religious leaders didn’t want to hear that because they thought they already had salvation through the law of Moses so they called Jesus a blasphemer and hung him on a cross because he offended them, because he spoke against their religion, because he spoke truth. Does that mean that Jesus didn’t love his neighbor as he loved himself? No, that is simply ridiculous to say that you can’t claim Jesus as being the truth because it is not loving your neighbor.
Yes you are to be loving, yes you are to be kind and gentle and meek, but you are also to speak the truth. What is the truth? Jesus says, “I AM THE TRUTH!” So as long as I continue to make the claim that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation then that will always mean that other religions are wrong and I will not turn my back on the cross and disgrace the name of Jesus by belittling his name and by making light of his truth so that other people can be comfortable in their own religions.
“Should we follow the example of Jesus and love those who hate us, or follow the example of Rev. Graham and spew hatred about those who disagree with us?” - Rob
Well certainly I think we should follow the example of Jesus. The Pharisee’s hated Jesus. And what did Jesus do in light of their hatred towards him? Did he back down and shut up so that he did not offend them? Did he let them continue to think that their religion was right? He loved them by telling the the truth, he loved them by telling them that they were wrong, he loved them by telling them that they were going to die in their sins!
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, ‘I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.’
The Pharisees challenged him, ‘Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.’
Jesus answered, ‘Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.’
Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”
‘You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also…….I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
Jesus said to the Pharisee’s, those who HATE HIM, that he was the light of the world, that he was the only way period! So those who HATED HIM questioned him on how he knows he is right. “Who are you Jesus to say that our religion is wrong and yours is right? Your testimony is not valid.” How did Jesus then deal with those who HATED HIM? He told them about himself, about his authority coming from God, he told them that they did not know God and he told them that they were going to die in their sin! Hmmm, Jesus spewed hatred by telling the lost Pharisee’s that they didn’t even know God and that they could not come to heaven? After all these Pharisee’s were dedicated to the scriptures, they memorized the word front and back, and they even knew all the commands so how dare Jesus tell them that they didn’t know God, right?
Jesus told them the truth, he is the only way. Rev. Graham spoke the truth. He may not have done it in an appropriate place (I don’t know the whole story for sure), but the fact remains what he said was not a lie and was not hatred. If telling people they are wrong and that there is only one way to salvation is considered hatred and not love then Jesus and his apostles and disciples did a whole lot of hating.
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)
ORIGINAL COMMENTS TO THIS POST
So you believe that the words of Paul (the self-appointed apostle) are more important than the teaching of Jesus? That it is only faith that matters not works?
The theology of Paul that you call christianity is far from the teaching of Jesus. True christianity would be a far more compassionate, gentle, and loving religion.
Posted by: Rob on April 23, 2003 11:18 AM
This whole entire post is about Jesus and the WORDS OF JESUS. I quoted out of the gospels, which none of them were written by Paul the Apostle or have anything to do with Paul.
It was Jesus who said “I am the way, the truth, and the life and no man may see the Father except through me”, Jesus himself said “so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who BELIEVES in him may have eternal life”, it was Jesus who said, “Whoever BELIEVES in him is not condemned, but whoever does not BELIEVE stands condemned already because he has not BELIEVED in the name of God’s one and only Son”, It was Jesus who said after many of the miricles, “It was your FAITH that saved you…your FAITH has healed you…your FAITH has made you well…” As Jesus spoke the Bible says, “many put their FAITH in him….his disciples put their FAITH in him…. the crowd put their FAITH in him…”
It is not on Paul’s own authority that he said what he did either, but it is on God’s authority that we know for sure that it is faith in Jesus Christ that provides justification and forgivness of sins, “not by works so no man can boast.” Paul didn’t conjure up his own message, he got his message from Jesus himself!
“This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.” - Jesus (John 3:19-21)
Here is the reason that Christianity seem so forceful and so un-compassionate and harsh. Jesus said it himself, those who do evil HATE the light and when the light is spoken to them they certainly are going to HATE the messenger. It is conviction that causes people to feel as though they are being judged, it is the revelation of their own sins that cause them to become angry with those who proclaim truth. It is obvious that to those, who do not wish to believe the message of truth, the message will seem harsh and un-loving to them because the message reveals that they “stand condemned already.” This is why Jesus didn’t come into the world to condemn the world, because he didn’t have to, the world was already condemned and all of those who do not know Christ stand condemned to be seperated from God for eternity.
Posted by: Pressed on April 23, 2003 12:19 PM
None of passages that you quoted points to faith over works.
‘I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.’
Could “Whoever follows me” mean those who follow the example of Jesus? Or must they be “born again” and accept Jesus as the son of God?
So every person who does not accept Jesus as god is condemned? Every jew, every muslim, every hindu, every wiccan, every atheist, every person that does not agree with your version of christianity (catholics, mormons, etc.) is condemned?
OK this is more like questions than comments.
Posted by: Rob on April 23, 2003 12:44 PM
We may be able to be righteous in mans’ eyes, but not in God’s. We can never do enough good works to earn God’s favor…never.
Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Romans 3:10
As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
Jesus explained that you can earn eternal life by obeying the commandments (doing good deeds)…then He went on to point out that it is impossible for man to do that. He explained that there is “only One who is good.”
Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Matthew 19:16-17
Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
We can only be righteous in God’s eyes through His Grace. Our works will not measure up, no matter how many we do or how “big” the works are. But God is Gracious. We see many examples of His Grace throughout the entire Bible,(including sparing Noah and his family in the flood, preserving David’s line,) the very scripture which Jesus taught from and lived by. The Ultimate act of Grace was sending Jesus to take our place and thus our punishment for our sin.
Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Yes, Jesus did teach us to do good things and He set the standard, but those good things come from the faith we have in Him.
James 2:17b-18
“…faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.”
Jesus taught over and over and over again to believe in Him. To have a faith, even if it is as small as a mustard seed. He was the One righteous to stand in our place and through Him only are we made righteous! He taught that we need to have faith in Him, and in the One who sent Him.
John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
John 12:44
Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.
Paul’s teachings are in line with exactly what Christ taught. Faith.
The most loving thing to do is introduce Jesus Christ to someone who doesn’t know Him. Sometimes the most compassionate thing to do is to confront someone, even forcefully if need be, to one who denies Him. Sharing about Christ should be gentle, but sometimes, the situation may call for a bit more agressiveness…as when Christ confronted the money-lenders at the temple. A righteous indignation when motivated by love, may not necessarily be gentle.
Posted by: Susan L. Prince on April 23, 2003 12:55 PM
Thanks Susan.
We may be able to be righteous in mans’ eyes, but not in God’s. We can never do enough good works to earn God’s favor…never.
It seems then that good works are not necessary. If one cannot be perfect he should not even bother. Faith alone will get you to heaven.
I cited this in the previous post, but it fits here:
For if you are able to bear the entire yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect; but if you are not able to do this, do what you are able. Didache 6:2,3
That seems to me to say that God knows that you will not be perfect but you should strive to follow the example of Jesus even though you will fail. Am I misinterpreting that?
Posted by: Rob on April 23, 2003 01:07 PM
“Could “Whoever follows me” mean those who follow the example of Jesus? Or must they be “born again” and accept Jesus as the son of God?” -
No it can’t mean that because that would contradict the rest of scripture. Jesus says that you must be born again. He told Nicodemus, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
“So every person who does not accept Jesus as god is condemned? Every jew, every muslim, every hindu, every wiccan, every atheist, every person that does not agree with your version of christianity (catholics, mormons, etc.) is condemned?”
Yes every single person who is born on this earth no matter what they believe or who they are if they do not know Jesus and accept him as Lord they stand condemned already. Yes every jew, every muslim, every hindu, every wiccan, every atheist, and every person who does not agree with God’s version of Christianity. “Whoever believers in him is not condemned, but WHOEVER DOES NOT BELIEVE STANDS CONDEMNED ALREADY because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” John 3:18-19
Posted by: Pressed on April 23, 2003 01:15 PM
The Bible says: John 3:14-16 “… that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
If a Jew believes in Him and accepts Christ as his savior he will have eternal life. If a jew does not believe in Him and accept Christ as his savior, he will not have eternal life.
If a muslim believes in Him and accepts Christ as his savior he will have eternal life. If a muslim does not believe in Him and accept Christ as his savior, he will not have eternal life.
If a hindu believes in Him and accepts Christ as his savior he will have eternal life. If a hindu does not believe in Him and accept Christ as his savior, he will not have eternal life.
If a wiccan…
If an atheist…
If a mormon (who are NOT Christian)…
If a catholic…
If a person claiming to be christian (many claim to be Christian who have not accepted Christ, therefore technically they are not Christian) does not believe in Him and accept Christ as his savior, he will not have eternal life.
If a PERSON, as in a HUMAN, believes in Him and accepts Christ as his savior he will have eternal life. If a PERSON, as in a HUMAN, does not believe in Him and accept Christ as his savior, he will not have eternal life.
Posted by: Susan L. Prince on April 23, 2003 01:16 PM
Okay, that’s what I thought you would say.
But, Craig this is the version of christianity that you accept. That does not make it “God’s version of Christianity.” I wonder what joseph j. fell has to say about this.
If I wanted to accept Jesus what would I have to do (as a non-practicing atheist)?
Posted by: Rob on April 23, 2003 01:30 PM
The problem is striving to follow God’s example even though you will fail is not what justifies you before God. Striving for obedience to God is what you want to do after you have salvation in order to show your love for him by being obedient to him, but that does not earn for you righteousness in anyway. Just living and doing only what you are able to do doesn’t manufacture forgivness of sins according to your works.
It is Jesus alone who justifies us before God. He is the bridge between us and God and it is only through him that we are declared righteous.
I think of it like this. Everyone deserves hell. Me, you, and everyone else who was born. God is an infinite God and his law is an infinite law. When we sin against the infinite God we break God’s infinite law and therefore we deserve an infinte punishment. There is no way that we can ever pay the penalty for this sin, there is no way that we can earn back God’s favor and that is why our punishment is eternal (forever). It take someone who is infinite in order to pay the penalty for that sin. That is why Jesus came. Jesus is the infinite God who stood in our place to pay the penalty for the sin we commited. Jesus and Jesus alone was able to pay the penalty and free us from the eternal hell we deserve. That is why it is through Jesus alone that we are justified. We could do good works the rest of our lives and we would never be justified before God accept through Jesus.
Posted by: Pressed on April 23, 2003 01:38 PM
James 2:26 “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.”
When Paul speaks of works, he is speaking of works that will “assumingly” get you into favor with God. He explains that you can not earn your way to eternity with God, by doing good deeds. Paul places the utmost importance on faith. Faith in Jesus and the redemption that came through Him.
James speaks of works, but of a different kind, works that are done in obediance to that same faith that Paul talks about.
When a person comes to faith in Christ a life is changed. I know from my own experience. Because of my faith, I want to please God with my actions. It is what a person does with their faith that demonstrates what they believe about God to be true.
So, good deeds do not get you eternal life. Faith in Jesus gets you eternal life. When God is Gracious enough and merciful enough to give you that eternal life, what better way to show your love and appreciation than to do “good” deeds, or behave in ways that are “pleasing in His sight”? It is a very humbling experience. Christians refer to this kind of living as “fruit”, or our faith coming into fruition.
Posted by: Susan L. Prince on April 23, 2003 01:44 PM
Rob. Maybe this is the part that you misunderstand about me. You are right, this is the Christianity that I accept as true because of several reasons. Because of my study of the Bible and Greek languages and because of my salvation experience with Jesus I believe that God’s word is true. Now, I made that choice to follow Christ and believe in him and my life has changed because of it. But it was a choice. And when it comes down to it there is still a choice to be made.
I am not saying that you absolutely have to accept what I say, I am simply providing the facts that I know and believe to be true and it is up to you to consider them, it is ultimately your choice as to whether or not that is something you want to peruse. But this is what I believe to be true with all of my heart and my purpose is not to force people to accept it, but simply to present the message.
The message sounds forceful because it basically says what Susan was saying, if someone accepts Christ he has eternal life, and if someone rejects Christ he does not have eternal life. But I stress the choice is yours. Sorry if I did not make the clear. I can’t force you or anyone to do anything, I can only tell you what I know, what I have experienced, what I have learned and what God has taught me and every time I do that I am chastised and ridiculed and looked down on for it. Ya know what I am sayin?
Posted by: Pressed on April 23, 2003 01:51 PM
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. - Romans 10:9-10
Or for more information on that you can check out JESUS if you want.
Posted by: Pressed on April 23, 2003 01:56 PM
I hear ya Craig.
I obviously have an interest in religion or I would not be here pestering you. And I really don’t care if one offshoot or another of christianity thinks that I am condemned to an eternity in hell.
As I pointed out before after my death I will be nothing but ashes and memories. For me an eternal life will be living on in the memories of those whose lives I have touched and in the lives of those whom they have touched and so on. We can all affect the lives of others by being a friend to someone who needs one, by respecting others and their opinions, by sharing food with someone who is hungry, etc. Or we can tell everyone that they are evil going to hell unless they agree with us.
Posted by: Rob on April 23, 2003 02:20 PM
Well once again, it is not if you agree with me, but with the Bible. But regardless you make it sound as if telling others about hell is the only thing I do. I have also been a part of feeding the hungry, helping the elderly, painting for people who couldn’t do it, working at homless shelters, working with kids who have nothing, and giving away clothes and stuff to the homeless. I spend a lot of my time loving others and helping those who are in need, so it isn’t like I just sit around and ponder how to talk to others about their eternal destination all day.
Posted by: Pressed on April 23, 2003 02:48 PM
i see the problem as being with people acceptign what they want and not what God wants. most people have a hard time dealing with when their boss tells them they’ve done their job wrong. pluralism and the whole no absolute way thing is most likely a response from people that can’t deal with God saying your Life is wrong. change it or go to hell. sure he died for our sins, but he didn’t die so we can keep on sinning, he died so we be forgiven before we know, and once we know of him to change our lives, believe in him, and follow him.
Posted by: me on April 24, 2003 08:57 PM
lol
i was going to make a comment on this but it so long i couldnt be bothered reading it all.
hope you’re doing well pressy,
take it easy!
dave
Posted by: dave on April 25, 2003 04:00 AM
Dave, yes and the thing keeps getting bigger. Pressy? That is new one, eh eh. Not sure if that is good or bad… anyway I am doing well thanks for asking. I have wondered where you have been, good to see your still around. 
Posted by: Pressed on April 25, 2003 10:04 AM
Add A Comment